**

Transcript 1-20-99

Paramount studios/ CBS Radio Syndicate

Dr. Laura (L): After your experiences in Spain it seems to me you just needed to get into another intimate relationship rather than do all that meditation.

Zoe (Z): Well, you could very well be right about that.

L: So you got angry at Ron and at life in general for not being perfect and turned your back on love and all its complications. Doesn't that about sum it up?

Z: Meditation probably can be used that way, Dr. Laura. Concentration can be deepened in a way that suppresses other states. Of course that it is irrelevant to the value and beauty of those mind states that can be cultivated. Life may offer us more options than we tend to appreciate.

L: Sure. Ok. But at what expense? -- turning your back like that on life!

Z: ok. Hold on a minute, Dr. Laura. Actually you are flat wrong. -- i was simply trying to be agreeable so we wouldn’t get off on the wrong foot. Frankly, I came here only for the money, not to fight with you. But if you really want to talk about it, let’s talk, and I apologize for being patronizing.

L: Well?

Z: In mindfulness meditation we develop concentration as an essential first step. And doing that requires renunciation though I'm not completely happy with that word because usually it gets linked to ascetic self-denial which is not what I'm talking about--

L: Sounds to me like you are talking about an elitist apppropriation of aloneness--

Z: That can happen. But being mindful is bringing one's whole heart into all of life, and in so doing one doesn't cling to anything, not even the more concentrated states.

L: ok, we'll ignore that. Now what about sex, intimacy?

Z: One brings mindful attention into all of life, ordinary life. That is where one is free.

L: Do you know how many millions of women have been hurt by "free love" nonsense?

Z: Free love requires--

L: By the way, did you burn your bra?

Z: No I did not burn my bra. I just didn't have anything clean this morning.

L: oh.

Z: Since it's radio I thought it’d be ok.

L: We’re on tv too. I have a tv program now.

Z: We are? --Do I get paid more then?

L: No, its the same rate.

Z: Well, sorry. I hope its ok.

L: Yah, it's ok. See, actually I don't have one either.

Z: Free love requires deep respect and communication and being scrupulous not to harm.

L: Yeah, right. Normally it is simply childish irresponsibility.

Z: A child free to roam--

L: I'd be afraid--

Z: yes, me too! We do tend to fear our own inclinations, what we might do. Actually we tend to be frightened to death of ourselves.

L: What others might do. You've just been lucky then to roam without getting in trouble.

Z: I'm careful. yet you're right. I have been lucky. But i'm careful.

L: You mean about sex?

Z: Not all that often actually and not with drugs. And not with goons either.

L: I thought you condoned drug use.

Z: No!-- Where did you get that?

L: Well, you talk about drugs.

Z: Well, shit. Oops, sorry. Sorry.

L: So?

Z: --Well, yes, of course, I do acknowledge that drugs exist!

L: You don’t encourage it?

Z: No. The real issue is: are we just seeking exhilaration, pleasure, a rush; or do we want to develop our minds and really flourish as human beings?

L: Back to sex. Not everybody can expect to be so lucky if they play around so much.

Z: Wait. If it is possible to communicate well enough to get married then surely you can do it well enough just to have sex.

L: That is so bizarre.

Z: I am talking only about clarity, trust, respect.

L: You are so naive, innocent!

Z: I like what Christopher Titmuss says about innocence--

L: What did he say?

Z: "Refusing to live without self-deception is the hallmark of innocence."

L: That is such hype!

Z: We can take risks to open up our life and get free.

L: Freedom, schmreedom!! I am so tired of all the new age hype, these inflated claims.

Z: ok. Good point. There definitely is alot of hype about freedom. It also is used by advertisers very subtly. Maybe I throw the word around too much too.

L: I think you do.

Z: It's deepest meaning is peace.

L: Really? --Peace? -- I didn't expect that!

Z: Freedom from the torment of unsettled yearning in one's mind.

L: Constant craving--

Z: Yes! And when one begins to pay attention it is so fascinating to see it clearly without necessarily being wrapped up in it. At times to see it dissolve.

L: Dissolve?

Z: Disappear. It can be subtle. Gross addictions, yes, but also ordinary constant preoccupation with pleasures or even with one’s thoughts, what one believes. More subtly still: trying to possess experiences, thoughts, even trying to hold one’s self, extending oneself into the future, the sense of "me" coloring all perceptions--

L: -- what keeps Joe on the prowl.

Z: Joe?

L: Yah.

Z: Joe who?

L: Listen sister, I get 70 calls every day from women trying to deal with some Joe.

Z: Yah, I’m trying to do that myself. I didn't think I was going to like you at all. I only came here for the $500.

L: Hmm.

Z: By the way, that will be in cash, right?

L: Yes, ok.

Z: I’ve had some problems with another show.

L: Oh yeah. we hear about Larry King all the time. Mark McGwire said the same thing happened to him over there. Happened to me too, for that matter.

Z: You had Big Mac on?

L: Just last week.

Z: Oh. I am very sorry I missed it.

L: He is one hunk of a guy.

Z: God, I know.

L: He sat right where you are sitting.

Z: Oh, God!

L: You’d be on his lap right now.

Z: I feel faint!!

L: I know.

Z: No really. I need some water. [Gasping] Do you have any water?

L: Here.

Z: Thank you.

L: Are you ok.

Z: Yes, I’m ok. --We can't just pin everything on the guys, you know.

L: But they're the ones leaving 20 year marriages for needy girls in order to revive their self-images.

Z: Yah but what was going on in those marriages? I have some doubts about the institution itself, you know. Do you know what Kant said about marriage?

L: Yes, I know. I read your article.

Z: Where did you read it?

L: Its all over the internet. I must admit the quote from Kant rather shocked me --owning another person--we have a word for that!

Z: Kant’s statement was pretty extreme. But why don't people talk about this? -- Would my being married to you equal me owning you and you owning me?

L: I would never marry you.

Z: Well, I wasn’t asking. At least Kant had some notion about what it means. People should talk about it. Then there might be the chance of not getting stuck in archaic patterns that have little or no meaning.

L: Like the conversations between Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman in Eyes Wide Shut.--

Z: Yes, exactly, that level of honesty--revealing what one's mind is really like! Rather than pretending otherwise all the time! About that movie, though, I was wondering why couldn’t there have been some interesting sexual energy between Cruise and Kidman to complement the conversation?

L: Yes, rather than that bizarre Puritan Mardi Gras!

Z: Don’t forget that was Cruise’s nightmare--

L: Their marriage gets strengthened maybe--

Z: Yes indeed, I agree. by talking straightforwardly, honestly. Revealing to the beloved how frankly shameless is one’s mind!

L: Well, I think you are idealizing that a bit. They weren’t merely talking. They were fighting.

[Some cell phone is ringing]

Z: Fighting? I didn’t notice that!

L: Yes, after that party. She danced with some creepy guy, and he played around with those two girls. Neither went off and had sex but later they fought about it anyway.

Z: Was it really fighting?

L: Oh, yes. Like dogs.

Z: Maybe it wasn’t clear to me because Nicole's character was so horribly diminished. Hollywood better wake up. Girls everywhere are playing basketball and surfing the internet.

[cell phone is ringing]

Z: excuse me. Hello?

[pause]

Z: Oh hi Erin. I can’t talk now. I’m on tv.

[pause]

Z: Dr. Laura.

[pause]

Z: Yes. Dr. Laura!

[pause]

Z: Well, that’s easy enough for you to say, especially since you got tenure--

[pause]

Z: Erin, I needed the money!! Nothing is selling.

[Pause]

Z: Whatever.

[Pause]

Z: I gotta’ go.

[Pause]

Z: Yah, ok. Good. let’s go dancing then. Bye. Call me later. [Pause] Sorry.

L: it’s ok. By the way, so I had heard you were into swing dancing and salsa. Given your principles, I was wondering how do you deal with the fact that men lead in those dances.

Z: Good grief! It's just for fun. That's just one way to do it!

L: Ok

Z: Besides, you can dance with other women. I dance with Erin all the time.

L: Erin?

Z: My friend. She just called.

L: Oh, so --what do you mean, friend?

Z: I mean friend. Besides, even with men, when you get the hang of it the woman can lead even though it might look the same.

L: Maybe marriages could too.

Z: Could what?

L: Look the same but be different.

Z: How?

L: When two people really do talk. Quit hiding the-- how did you put it?

Z: Shamelessness?

L: Yes, the shamelessness of the human mind.

Z: What about it?

L: To share it. To accept it and love it in another just as in oneself.

Z: Hmm.

L: Eric Hoffer said it is always safe to assume that people are more subtle and less sensitive than they seem.

Z: Did he mean less sensitive as in being less responsive to others or sensitive as in being less vulnerable?

L: Well, both. It works both ways. So you accept both the lack of responsivity and the invulnerability in another person as frankly as you accept your own. Isn’t this what you are supposed to do in mindfulness meditation?

Z: Yes, that is correct. Simply observe it. Even when the mind is brutal, for instance, in simply not caring about somebody.

L: Well, why not bring that into a relationship?

Z: Even when it is the other person one happens not to care about at that moment?

L: Yes. That is why you’ll fight like dogs. But you don’t just buy a bus ticket out of town and go to LA. You snap and bite to keep the other’s attention.

Z: fight?

L: Marriage can be strengthened by fighting--mixing up desire with anger like in Epstein’s book.

Z: Which book?

L: The one about Joe.--

Z: What about it?

L: Joe has to do that, but he can’t.

Z: Do what?

L: Mix desire and anger.

Z: Why not?

L: It can happen deeply only in a relationship in which two people feel a commitment, a sense of responsibility for each other. I take it concepts like commitment are out the window for you?

Z: I never said that -- did I?

L: I think you did.

Z: --I think I'll plead the 5th on that. You never know who might be listening.

L: So you're throwing in the towel that quickly?

Z: Dr. Laura, earlier you told me you talk with 70 miserable women every day most of whom are married to Joe. More often than not your advice is to kick the bastard out until he shapes up. Generally less than half of marriages work and of those said to work one wonders. How many women are just waiting it out? I’ll soon be dead, they think, in twenty or thirty years. And you are saying I'm the one throwing in the towel?! Simply because I'm willing to admit I do not know how to do it but nonetheless I am unwilling to pretend--

L: Maybe you’re just unwilling to fight. -- We've got to go to a break. Honestly, I did not expect to like you either. But I do.

Z: Thank you. Likewise.

L: And good luck chasing McGwire.

Z: What?!

L: I saw that gleam! How do you feel about Sammy Sosa?

Z: That definitely would be an extremely tough choice!

L: Yes.

Z: Did you realize George W. Bush traded Sammy Sosa to the Chicago Cubs?

L: No! I did not know that!

Z: yes, when he owned the Texas Rangers.--I saw it on ESPN SportsCenter.

L: We can’t have him president then!

Z: No-siree-Bob! My point exactly.

L: Once that gets out he won’t have a chance. I need to take a commercial break. Thank you, Zoe Alexander, for being with me today. We disagree on many things but it has been nice talking with you. Stay with me. I'll be right back after this break.

[off mic]

L: Were you serious about freedom meaning peace?

Z: Oh, yes, absolutely. That’s where everything else is pointing. And not just suppressing stuff by means of deep concentration. Just being at peace, not craving, not holding.

L: Not holding?

Z: Not fixated on trying to control experience all the time.

L: So it is not merely suppression.

Z: No it is not merely suppression. Sometimes that is a skillful thing to do, and meditation can be used for that, but that is just the beginning. -- they call it "access concentration."

L: Who does?

Z: The buddhists. There’s a lot of literature about this. To develop it, in the beginning you do try to calm and steady the mind, which involves something like suppression. To go beyond suppression, how it works is one calms and steadies one’s mind so it is "steady enough"--and then one gives equal energy to all the life processes--really energetic inquiry and investigation into one’s experience. There is a skill here that can be cultivated and to do so requires special attention and effort.

L: you sure about all this?

Z: Laura, about some things, no --especially not theoretical stuff --but I am sure about the practical points.

L: How do you do it?

Z: Sit quietly, and one way to calm and steady your mind is to aim your attention to the sensations associated with your breathing, the normal breathing process. Just trying to maintain the continuity of awareness with the simple, normal flow of sensations. Attention to the normal breath is a good, neutral process to use to get going.

L: That’s all?

Z: That is correct. It is a good way to begin. You develop deeper concentration that way. When your attention wanders --and of course it will wander-- don’t worry about that. Simply note what is happening, then gently and firmly and repetitively return to the neutral flow of body sensations associated with your breathing. Then pretty soon, when the attention is more stable, one simply sits mindfully aware of what is happening, coming back to breath for balance or when there is any question about what to do.

L: Actually, I have tried it. Its difficult.

Z: You can’t expect magic. There are skills to develop. It takes time and practice and effort. Both concentration and mindfulness are good skills to cultivate.

L: But I still wonder if there isn’t some subterfuge here to avoid emotions that result in fighting.

Z: That is possible but it certainly isn’t the whole picture. I don’t think one should simply dismiss the type of activity I am describing because you are afraid of the subterfuge. That would be like Nietzsche dismissing all religion as based in ressentiment. That was a good insight about aspects of western religions but in any case it is not the whole picture about renunciation.

L: About what?

Z: Renunciation.

L: Why are you bringing that up?

Z: it is connected with how mindfulness gives us freedom.

L: For instance?

Z: For instance, uh --ok, after I bought some Microsoft stock last year I began checking it on the internet. It was fun for awhile. Sometimes I made $200 in 15 minutes. Then I’d lose it in the next hour. But basically its doing ok, I think. Actually I don’t know right now.

L: I’m afraid it took a nosedive--worries about the antitrust suit.

Z: Oh. Too bad.-- Anyway, the point is that checking it all the time got oppressive. It really isn’t that interesting or important. So I decided to stop.

L: Just stop?

Z: Yes. Just stop checking the price all the time. Just break the habit. Erin convinced me it’d be a good idea for the long run, but I had better things--

L: How could you just stop? Actually I have the same problem.

Z: A lot of people do nowadays. That is what I was getting at. That is where practicing mindfulness comes in handy. It can give us some freedom with patterns. When you note the urge to do it--

L: do what?

Z: whatever it is, anything, just relax into mindfulness of the urge --just catch the desire, intention, and so forth --catch the action just as it begins. Observe what is happening in your body. You might feel tensing in your body, about to move, and so on. Whatever is going on. Just slip into clear mindfulness. This can be developed.

L: Then you can break a habit just like that?

Z: Yes. --No. --Maybe not all at once. The concentration practice is the basis for it--

L: the observation of breath?

Z: Yes. to calm and steady one’s mind in the beginning. We aren’t necessarily going to change all at once. Maybe not even very much. But mindfulness gives us leverage. It really is interesting to see freedom emerge in one’s mind in simple definite ways.

L: But I am so wary of the hype about freedom; it still smacks of individualism yet mixed with suppression.

Z: You had some interesting points. --Don’t you have to get back to your show?

L: They can run commercials. What I’m afraid of is that your meditation is like the way communism got peaceful societies--

Z: That was repression.

L: Yes. That is what I mean.

Z: true. When I was sixteen I travelled in eastern Europe just before the wall was torn down. I must admit I found attractive the peace of East Berlin.

L: You were naive.

Z: Yes, of course. To some extent. Back then I thought Reagan was the one who was naive. Yet there was such a contrast between West and East Berlin. the neon lights of West Berlin were so beautiful--all the colors and energy --yet they were actually so much less beautiful to me than the natural light and darkness of East Berlin.

L: they couldn’t afford the electricity.

Z: well, I know. And very true, it was a projection from within me--I mean, to see it as peaceful. --During that trip I was just yearning so much for deep solitude, for the seclusion and peace of deep concentration, and I did not know there are ways to go into it--I mean, I didn’t yet realize that human cultures have developed ways to do it, like we were just talking about. So anyway I guess at that time I was hoping there was something going on in the socialist societies that was a real alternative to the aggression, greed, self-centeredness of New York and West Berlin.--the neon lights of West Berlin came to symbolize all that for me.

L: I saw your painting, --the neon rainbows. But people in eastern Europe were depressed.

Z: Laura, you know I side with freedom. You just accused me of hyping the idea, and maybe you are right. But now the tables are turned. Nowadays in eastern Europe you can see Naomi Campbell virtually naked all over--

L: She has her own company. She sells her own stuff now.

Z: Great. That’s good. But is Budapest better off with her naked all over the city?

L: so?

Z: In Budapest before the changes you had neon used so simply and creatively. Now it is just the same as everywhere else. And you have violent crime you didn’t have fifteen years ago, gangsters everywhere. It is even worse in Moscow.

L: So? Because of naked Naomi Campbell billboards? --Because of the neon signs at McDonald’s and Dunkin’ Donuts?

Z: I don’t know. The point is its not like just simple freedom is all that matters. Freedom is not just acting on wanton desires, as individuals or as societies. Many people get stuck in greedy patterns, always wanting more, no matter how much we have --whether we are talking money or sex or autonomy-- and never content.

L: I have to go. Let’s talk again. Actually if you were free for dinner--

Z: On the questions of individual freedom and social justice and this stuff, these are really complex. I hope you realize I didn’t mean to claim that any spiritual traditions’ focus on our habits of greed is going to provide all of the answers. On the contrary. But simply having more efficient technologies, better forces of production, globalization of commerce, -- surely that is not enough either--

L: [laughing] so now besides everything else you want to sound like a marxist too?

Z: What? --Look. A lot of theory isn’t necessary, just look at your own mind. Not in a judgmental way, not evaluating as good or bad. Just see what is happening, and ask what makes you happy. Do more neon lights really do it?

L: No. Of course not. Let’s talk again.

Z: This stuff is way more important than anything else we have to talk about.

L: By the way, you need to get your head examined.

Z: Yes.

L: Promise me you’ll get it taken care of properly--ok?

Z: Yah.

L: You can’t just keep changing baseball caps and expect it to get better. Promise me you’ll take care of it.

Z: Yes, I know. I will. I am. I think it’s getting better now. Thanks for not mentioning it on the air.

L: I have enjoyed talking with you.

Z: Thank you. That is very kind of you to say.

L: So how about dinner?

Z: Ok, I’d like to.

L: I’m not trying to hit on you.

Z: Oh, no. I didn’t think you were.

L: But I must say you are very attractive to me.

Z: Thank you.

L: I’ve never felt this way about a woman before.

Z: It’s ok. It’s normal.

L: Hmm.

Z: --How about at 6 down at Leroy’s?

L: Ok. See you then.

Z: Ok. Uh--

L: What?

Z: The money?

L: Oh. Sorry.

Z: That’s ok.

L: Here.

Z: Thanks.

L: See you later.

Z: Later.

L: Bye. 6 o’clock.

Date: Thursday 22 January 1999 7:52:37 -0400

Subject: Re: Re: Burma retreat

From: Zo <zoalex@aol.com>

To: erin77@uw.edu

Mime-version: 1.0

X-priority: 3

Status:

>>concentration, for all i know). But practicing concentration >>techniques is a completely different ballgame from using drugs, >>for obvious reasons. if i have to spell that out for you then >>forget it. you are an idiot. just watch tv.

> Hi Zo, Thanks for the email message about your retreat. It was > interesting. I hadn’t quite realized you are so religious.

> I tried watching tv. We saw you on ESPN SportsCenter. You actually looked >really good in the t-shirt and Cardinals cap. I was so proud of you. --And good >idea, the NBA andWNBA should join forces, should ignore gender, and let men and women >play together. It will definitely happen if for no other reason than it is SO >SEXY-- like when we were playing last week with those guys from >the Sonics, and Gary Payton trying to guard me underneath the basket, rubbing right up against >me from behind--whoa whoa whoa Betsy!

--But I think there is a problem. I’m not sure > I can buy your formula for it: you’d require two biological females on the floor at >all times. I realize this is just supposed to be > a way to balance the fact that biological males tend to be bigger and >faster. Ok fine. But what will happen, I fear, is only the quick females and the tall males >will play-->leaving out all the tall females and the short quick males. >See the problem? Think about it. So why not have other teams for them-->so there are still two leagues: in one, say, no men over 5’10" and >no women under 5’8". Do you see it? One league with tall women >and quick men, the other with tall men and fast women...> What do you think?

And your football metaphors about philosophy were >pretty funny, especially why playing defense is more fun. Actually >if you don’t mind I’m going to use that at this conference >in a couple of months. I have >to comment on a paper by that fuckhead Liddy. >Actually CNN apparently is trying to set up a debate. --

.But then you went way whacky on us, girl!-- "meditation >as an extreme sport"?? --> "Reincarnation as body surfing"??--Good heavens you idiot!!--> Zo goes "Can we do that, mommy?"

> Also a fashion tip: you should wear a bra >if you are going to keep bringing up McGwire. Trust me, it >shows. Or maybe its just the studios are cold. Then wwe get to sex and drugs: Listen, Z--> kids are listening to you! Zo came in yesterday andtold me Madonna was >talking about you on MTV; and then she asks me, what is ecstacy?

> Actually I would appreciate it if you went >ahead and spelt out what you have in mind here about the relationship between drugs and >meditation. I feel you might have something >constructive to say. But I don’t think its coming through. AndI honestly have no idea what I am going to say to Zoe >about this. I don’t want to instil stupid >mindless fear but the truth is many kids are >getting themselves in serious trouble; and dangerous drugs >are so easily accessible.

Hi Erin,

ok ok. --I thought it was clear the body surfing joke was supposed to be --uh, a joke!--Now you can’t get a joke? -- I bet your daughter got it. ! :)

--Excellent point about how to organize nogender basketball. You might be right. but I think your twoo types of teams might just naturally evolve and be competitive in the same league; notice you assume the tall guys and fast women combination would be better than they fast guys/tall women combo, but this isn’t at all totally obvious to me. think about Allen Iverson and Lisa Leslie on the same team. I’d rather try to figure out some rule changes rather than have two leagues. --Btw of course I realized you had Payton aroused when he was trying to stay between you and the basket -- DUH!-- why do you think I kept throwing it to you! --

-- Religious? Why do you say religious??-- I’m not sure you understood what I wrote if you thought it was supposed to be about being religious.

Anyway about meditation, first of all, it is an extreme sport! ...Oh, snowboarded down Mt. Kilimanjaro, you say? -- Cool. --Next you might try a weekend vipassana retreat. :)

ok. re concentration and drugs, I would say from my own experience that rigorous concentration practice definitely yields states of mind that are as amazing as do any of the drugs out there. That is just a fact. Yet concentration is the foundation for (a) mindfulness and (b) independence of mind, whereas excessive drug use is the foundation for (a) carelessness and (b) dependence. One feature of some drugs is to intensify or enhance the sense of self as dense, the feeling "I am" as well as to exaggerate one’s abilities and intelligence etc plus to deepen the sense of ownership; these experiences are MINE. some music mgith do that too. Actually maybe meditation can too. The wider issue is about the role of seeking experiences in life.

The wider issues have to do with our approach to life. When drugs are used to put a glow around one’s ego and desires, then inevitably one’s connection with others is diminished. The more focus there is on the dense self the less there can be on one’s interrelatedness. We only have so much attention and energy to give. And excessive self-focus leads to carelessness. This isn’t just about drugs, of course, but about consumer culture generally. The problem is a lot bigger than drugs, it is about a market economy pandering to and promoting distracted eager minds. Since I have no clue how to organize an economy differently I’d say only that we should at least take the opportunity to focus on our own reactions and habits. It is so interesting, especially when one sees the beauty and joy of the simple, clear, non consuming mind.

Wait. Its kind of a cop out just to blame it on the economy. Its a bigger thing that than. Consider how we consume entertainment --of course, corporations are involved in that. But so also are simple, wonderful things like our emails to each other! it is good for us to entertain and stimulate each other,--I am in no way saying it is a bad thing --but nonetheless if one were \ totally wrapped up in that sort of thing one could fail to make room for the power and simplicity of one’s own being.--

I doubt if you are going to buy that. --do you buy that?

Anyway, about Zo --The trick is to live so that she won’t at some point engage in self-destructive behaviors as a way of rejecting a certain way of life such as yours, --ours --and that could happen if we aren’t really trying to live life in accord with what we know to be most important. And Erin my soul sister, we so easily DO NOT! This is just a simple, interesting fact that is conditioned by the fact that we are pretty well off. You want her to be secure and safe and happy. So you are working hard and investing money and so forth. But she is a living human being and unless she gets her mind closed real fast she is going to have many interests other than saving safely for retirement. Your well-intentioned acts might turn out to be counterproductive, like eg. if you continue to check your stock portfolio three times a day, that probablly will turn out to be more important that what you happen to remember to say or not to say about drugs. Your own habits like that create the world for her. If you could manage to sell all your goods and give everything to the poor, like Jesus told a rich guy to do, it would catapult Zo into paradise on earth in which drugs would be boring and definitely no threat. I mean, if you did it joyously. I realize you aren’t going to do that. The interesting thing is, even if you did that, then the next day there’d be new and equal challenges. What are you going to give today?

What I would like to be able to get at here is the role of renunciation amid great wealth. Actually I’m not sure I really see it clearly, Erin. We are so wealthy (to speak generally about society), and the problems with drugs is a symptom. Actually it also is related to giving their proper due to the mental states that can be cultivated in meditation. These are two different issues. (1) re their proper due: one can imagine living in India at the time of the Buddha. Imagine being dirt poor, a life filled with backbreaking labor, disease and death everywhere, few comforts --and then there come along a teachers talking about how to access tranquillity and bliss simply by repetitively attending to sensations in the body. It would be too good to be true. Yet it was true. One can easily imagine simply renouncing one’s ordinary life in order to pursue it. But for us--well, our ordinary lives seem pretty comfortable and interesting. I trust you can see my point. Its like the rich man with whom Jesus talked,--and that man went away sorrowful, according to the story- because he had so much!

(2) re problems with drugs a symptom: When Allan Ginsburg and Timothy Leury were promoting psychedelics to middle class BB kids in the ‘60s, they were acting on democratic values ("everybody should try psychedelics at least once"), they were responding to the mind-expanding powers of the drugs, and, in any case, they certainly had no intention of helping to establish the conditions for the Columbian cocaine cartel and the crack epidemic of the 80’s-- but nonetheless all that was a direct result (so, at least, argues Jill Jonnes)-- and if so, so was the devastation of the commu;nities that crack has broken apart. And for the BB-ers, the unintended consequences have to be taken as relevant= how counter-cultural consumption has affected those in society who are most vulnerable. Individual suffering cries out for more than conventional habits of consumption, but the solution isn’t going to be some sort of counter-cultural consumerism, --is it? --Come to think of it, one wouldn’t want to be a blind consumer of cultural stuff like meditation practices either.

You were just joking about the McGwire thing, --Right? Well, I mean- were you?I need your help here; --not only jokes since I’m not exactly accustomed to being on tv. I don’t want to change just for the cameras, I want to be the same there as in my studio painting, but --were you actually implying you could see my tits through the t-shirt ?? :{

Very funny thing happened Tuesday night. Funny meaning weird. I had dinner with Dr. Laura down at LeRoy;s, after her interview, and before I went over to ESPN-- and she tried to hit on me! --Kinda’ funny.

Have you heard any more news about Mark Epstein? I sent him some emails at his old account but haven’t heard a word from him since I got back. I’m getting worried about him.. See you soon.

--love, Z.

p.s. Joe and I are going camping this weekend. Maybe you and Zo can came along with us some time. Gave him a couple of philosophy books and he eats ‘em up. He;s like a tiger. All he wants to do is talk.

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