**

Christopher Titmuss (CT): I want to express my appreciation for the opportunity to meet with you today. I have looked forward to this for a long time. I would like to discuss and explore with you the field of Joe's meditation. It is an area of life in which I am involved.

Krishnamurti (K): You are concerned only with Joe’s meditation?

CT: I’m concerned with other areas, of course. --Now one of the questions which arises with frequency is the question of meditation with form, structure, method and technique as emphasized in many Eastern traditions. Your emphasis is that Joe’s meditation must be free--

K: Right from the beginning, what do you mean by "Joe’s meditation"?

CT: I make this concept interchangeable with such concepts as "Joe’s observation," "Joe’s mindfulness," "Joe’s total attention." I use the phrase "Joe’s meditation" in a broad way.

K: I’m asking what the phrase conveys, not the structure of Joe’s meditation.

CT: What the actual phrase conveys?

K: The etymological meaning of the phrase.

CT: It means Joe gives care and attention to the here and now.

K: We are not meeting each other. As I understand it, looking into the various dictionaries, it means "Joe ponders over," "Joe thinks over." The word in Sanskrit, I believe, means "Joe measures." It is merely a process of Joe measuring.

CT: He is measuring what?

K: What is, what should be, what he might achieve, what has been.

CT: And this comes within Joe’s meditation itself?

K: We’ll pry into the question "what is Joe’s meditation?" not "how Joe should meditate." We will not go into the various systems whether they be Buddhist, Hindu, Tibetan or from any other guru like the flirtatious artsy raver-chick who has a particular system of meditation for Joe to do. We are not discussing for the moment which is correct but what Joe’s meditation itself is. The meaning of the phrase implies Joe’s constant endeavor, constant self-recollectedness, constant observation of what he is doing, what he is not doing, attention to his body, the movement of the body, the controlling of thought and forcing thought to hold itself. All of this is implied in all of the systems, whether it is Zen Buddhism, or Tibetan, or even Christian contemplation. There is a sense of effort by Joe that is involved.

CT: The application of attention using effort is for Joe to give care and attention to thought.

K: All of that is implied. That is generally understood as Joe’s meditation. I can include what you do in all of this. There is the whole Zen system, awareness, Joe sitting up very still and having quieted the mind, controlling every reaction.

CT: I would say that the element of Joe controlling certainly comes in because

K: -- Of course, of course.

CT: But that is the initial expression due to Joe’s unfamiliarity with sitting still for varying periods of time.

K: So the central factor of Joe’s meditation is to control, in the sense of to hold.

CT: Yes, but that is a certain stage within the scope of his--

K: That is Joe measuring. That is why the phrase "Joe’s meditation" implies "Joe measuring," in the beginning and in the end.

CT: Isn’t it quite often that Joe enters into a new area such as meditation and, given his conditioning, says, "I am going to meditate in order to come to somewhere else"?

K: Yes, generally, that is what is understood.

CT: That initial understanding of meditation may change as Joe’s understanding of meditation changes.

K: Yes, that is Joe measuring. "I do not understand but I will understand. I am this, whatever this is and I will come to that which is a time interval." All that is effort.

CT: Are you implying here that by establishing a measurement, Joe in some way--

K: I’m observing, not condemning, agreeing or changing. I’m clearly seeing that in Joe’s meditation, when he sits alone and becomes more concentrated, taking various postures cross-legged or whatever, and having stabilized concentration then --

CT: There are dozens of techniques that one can use to stabilize--

K: Yes of course, and then perhaps playing mindfully with somebody else, even doing the calf-rope tie-down with some cowgirl or other, possibly with the philosophical artist chick--

CT: They do the tie-down?

K: yes, like in Epstein’s book. I saw a video of them doing it on the internet.

CT: The falling apart book?

K: No, the third book, the one with pictures. So they are looking at the pictures, doing the postures, even doing the tie-down--

CT: I can’t do it. I cannot stretch that much.

K: I know, it hurts. But it’s worth it. You ought to try harder. What sort of wimp are you?

CT: Well.

K: But what I’m saying is that in all this there is the element of time, measurement, control and something to be achieved. These are the central factors in all meditation.

CT: I get an underlying feeling it is inappropriate--

K: I will tell you exactly that there is no underlying hidden something. There are the various factors of meditation which you and Joe pursue. We never ask, "Why should I do all this? Why should I meditate?" We do exactly the same thing in other directions. "I am a poor man, and I want to become a rich man." "I do not have a girlfriend but I will publish an article in Tricycle magazine plus a personal ad, and then definitely I will get one, and we will do the tie-down together,"--

CT: I didn’t realize Tricycle was running personal ads. That’s a good idea!

K: its on their website. So, as I was saying, we think, "I am a clerk and I want to become an executive,"--it is all the same movement.

CT: Yes, but there is a qualitative difference.

K: It is the same movement. You are trying to call something "spiritual," right?

CT: Yes--

K: There, it is mundane. It is worldly. It is necessary. One asks for money, for shelter, therefore it is necessary. There is also a certain discipline there. Here too I must have discipline.

CT: But within--

K: I’m not condemning anything. I’m just watching.

CT: So you are pointing out that there are two major parallels between one movement of Joe’s mind which is--

K: No parallel. They are exactly the same.

CT: They are exactly the same in terms of the movement of Joe’s mind.

K: The clerk says, "Give me another ten years and I’ll be manager." Here, too, beginning to meditate Joe thinks, "I’m the beginner and I’ll come to the top," where the top is enlightenment. What is the difference between these two?

CT: I feel there is a certain difference. I don’t wish to exaggerate the importance of the relativity of Joe’s inner development.

K: It is exactly the same thing, only you call that "spiritual," "inner". This is psychological, subjective, under Joe’s skin; the other is the work Joe does at the factory or whatever he does to get money.

CT: I believe he may steal cars.

K: That is possible.

CT: He got me a nice Jeep. Cherokee Eagle. Quite cheap, too.

K: Could he get me one?

CT: Probably. He specializes in Jeeps. Just log on to his website www.joescars.com. Don’t put an apostrophe in.

K: You mean its just j-o-e-s-c-a-r-s without an apostrophe?

CT: Yes. Exactly.

K: is there a dash?

CT: A dash?

K: Between joes and cars?

CT: No. No dash.

K: Thank you. I appreciate that. That way when I am in California I could drive up to San Francisco without waiting for people to take me places.

CT: Yes, that is nice to do. But even so I feel there is a difference in the desire to drive and in spiritual--

K: I thought I just told you they are just exactly the same.

CT: I would think that the difference is that in spite of the identical nature of the two, one may contribute towards inner change and the other may deny it.

K: The other doesn’t deny it. Joe’s changed. He goes places more easily. He has a better car, he can drive wherever he wants to--

CT: What if he goes overseas?

K: That’s my point. He has money so he can rent a car there. He has a better house, maybe some stocks, maybe he runs for office. We have extended that same ambition to this so-called spiritual world.

CT: There is certainly an enormous danger in this transference from one kind of world into the other.

K: They are both the same. If Joe comes to you and you tell him to meditate I would reply that I don’t know what you mean by that. You tell him to investigate, to pay attention to what he is doing. These are all things that you and others say. Right?

CT: Yes. Hopefully one comunicates the actual position one is in at the present time.

K: What does that mean?

CT: That may mean that he is experiencing frustration, confusion or pain. It means that the primary emphasis initially--

K: Not primary or secondary. Let’s look at what you are saying. I’m not criticising you. I’m just observing what you are saying. Primary. The beginning. And with the beginning there is an end. That’s what all the gurus, all the Eastern philosophers, the artsy girl in Seattle, are saying to Joe: "Begin and you will get it. You will come near it." Pursuing this logically, Joe can find a rationale for all of this. In the same way Joe has to live in this beastly society so he must have more money otherwise he would be destroyed. And he looks at that--

CT: And sees there is a certain emptiness to it.

K: That’s it. Empty, right? Yes, there is a certain emptiness to it. Here you imply that if he does certain things he won’t be empty. I’m not criticizing anything. I will tell you what I think presently.

CT: As I listen to you what comes to mind is a condition of a number of people like Joe who find it extraordinarily difficult to make a leap which leaves behind their relative conditioning. What we have been describing is a material pursuit and a spiritual pursuit which certainly implies a beginning but it may not imply an end.

K: Forgive me, but you are repeating the same thing. That’s what they all say to Joe--the Tibetan Buddhists, the Hindus, the gurus, the raver-chick. Now even professional psychologists are saying it.

CT: Does the fact that something is repeated undermine it or disqualify it?

K: No, certainly not.

CT: By repeating I am trying to acknowledge the reality of Joe’s conditioning.

K: Human beings all over the world are conditioned as Christians, Buddhists, scientists, doctors, gurus. They are all conditioned by their culture. Those people who meditate and those who don’t meditate are all conditioned by their culture.

CT: Is it a total form of conditioning, though?

K: That’s the question. Is there within Joe a part of an inward state where there is no conditioning--a small part? Is that what you are saying?

CT: Is there a small part that isn’t conditioned? It does seem that given a certain outlook and attitude on life, we can look at mental processes clearly and directly, inwardly and outwardly. Therefore my question is: Are there beneficial conditions for Joe’s developing this kind of receptivity?

K: You’ll have to re-word your question, sir. What do you mean by "condition"?

CT: The bringing together--

K: I’m asking what do you mean by the word "condition"? Joe is conditioned.

CT: Does the fact that Joe is conditioned blind him to a consciousness where he can see clearly?

K: That means he must be free of conditioning.

CT: At least not overwhelmed by it.

K: No. Isn’t your question about the whole brain, which is after all the only instrument Joe has? The brain is all the reactions, the responses, the neurological patterns, ambitions, greed and envy. You are asking what is the conditioning that will help to free Joe’s brain of its conditioning. Are you sure you are asking that question?

CT: I think I’m confident enough to think I know the answer. It is simple mindfulness. My question is: Isn’t this element of mindfulness or observation within Joe’s brain able to see his mental processes clearly and directly?

K: So then we have to go into the question of observation, of seeing clearly. What do you mean by "seeing"?

CT: An awareness--

K: You see, I am not totally ignorant of your words. Don’t put me into "awareness" and all that. What do you mean by "seeing," "observing"? I observe that sofa. The visual observation, the whole window, the colour, what she is doing--

[Christopher’s two-year old daughter, Nshorna, is playing on the floor].

K: That is observation. The reactions are verbal, "bright," "dark," "black." So in that observation there is a verbalization of which Joe can also be aware. This is what is happening. "That is green." "That is a child." Remembrance and recognition. Then there is organization and representation. So these operate all the time, of course.

CT: Joe has an experience of seeing and he is affected by that experience.

K: Who is it that is being affected? ... I’m seeing his whole brain as conditioned.

CT: Yes.

K: This conditioning is its consciousness, right?

CT: Yes.

K: So if one is born in India one’s consciousness contains all of the beliefs, superstitions, blah, blah, blah. If I’m born in a Roman Catholic family it contains all the beliefs of Jesus, blah, blah, blah. This is conditioning. It is not one form of conditioning. They are both conditioned.

NSHORNA: [laughing] Blah, blah, blah.

CT: I agree.

K: Now you come along and say, "Look, meditation is necessary to uncondition."

CT: Not necessarily to uncondition but to find clarity with regard to the events that are happening.

K: That’s very simple. Clarity of what is happening. In the meeting between political leaders they are playing games. Joe’s friend out in the West is playing a political game to get elected and the other is definitely concerned about his opinions. You don’t have to hear what they are going to say.

CT: No, its quite apparent.

K: So we are moving away from the central fact that Joe is conditioned, programmed like a computer. It is obvious. And human beings like Joe have been wanting and searching for something spiritual, what you call "religion". There have been people who have been saying, "yes, there is something there called spiritual, religious." It’s been going on for a million years. Now you come around and say to Joe, "You can find that. To find it, meditate!" --to put it crudely. I can put it more subtly if you want.

CT: I prefer subtlety.

K: You may prefer it, but-- All right. To teach that sublime thing, the brain must be tranquil. They say the same thing, the Buddhists, the Zen, the Hindu, that amoral horny cowgirl. The Christians haven’t gone into this very deeply, the others have. Then the problem arises: Who is it that is going to make it silent? Who is the controller that controls thought? We never ask that question. We say that Joe must control thought.

CT: With inner observation--

K: "Inner observation"--what do you mean by that?

CT: Meaning in this case sitting alone or--

K: Why should Joe do that when he can do it much more simply? In his relationship to his wife he watches his reactions there.

CT: But one doesn’t exclude the other. --By the way, Joe is married?

K: Joe begins there. Joe begins to see his relationship--the whole structure of himself. Joe doesn’t have to ask you to teach him how to meditate.

CT: Joe certainly doesn’t have to go--

K: That is what is happening in the world. You have become the guru. I am not being insulting, please.

CT: That is an insult.

K: If you think that’s an insult, then take this--

[smack]

CT: Why you [expletive deleted] [expletive deleted]! I’m gonna’ whup your ass--

NSHORNA: [laughing] ‘whup your ass!

[Crash]

[scuffling sound]

[inaudible]

[crash]

[tape goes off]

CT: I didn’t know you knew kung-fu! Those were some nice moves!

K: You have some pretty good moves yourself, son. Yes, Charles Leadbeater and Annie Besant taught me kung-fu in 1918 at the Order of the Star boot camp while they were training me to be the World Messiah.

CT: Annie Besant? The one who is married to Warren Beatty?

K: Oh, no. I don’t think so. I think her name is Annie Benoint or something. Anyway she’d be way too young.

CT: Yeah, maybe you’re right. Did they have good food at the boot camp?

K: It was ok. But I mainly liked the kung-fu. That was before I saw through all that crap and told them to stuff it up their theosophical shorts.

CT: Boy, you certainly did it too!

K: Yes, I did it, son. Do you realize how different the whole east-west thing this century would look with me, Special K, in charge?

CT: I can’t imagine it. You would have had to duel with the Dalai Lama.

K: At high noon.

CT: You have anchored a radical sense of freedom, sir.

K: Do you think so?

CT: Yes.

K: I feel as if I have never taught anybody anything.

CT: You have lived as if the world could get along fine without you.

K: No!

CT: Yes.

K: [singing] Hey! Hey! I saved the world today!

CT: Funny. That’s funny. I like that song too, it somehow manages to hold the right amounts of irony and optimism--

K: [singing] Everybody’s happy now!

CT: After all, why not save the world?

K: At least die doing our part--

CT: Rather than trembling in fear, consuming madly, blindly, unthinkingly--

K: Yah. Sometimes I plough through a bag of potato chips and then wake up--hey! Wait! What am I doing?

CT: Yes, me too. --A jumbo bag or just a little one?

K: both.

CT: Both at once?

K: I did once. Was sick for two days.

CT: Wow.

K: its probably ok to do it now and then.

CT: sure. but we don’t want just to plough through life like that.

K: No. Everybody wants more than that. People look at me and still think I am special, but the truth is that it is equally a challenge and it must be appreciated and faced alone by every single person who sees his or her predicament--

CT: Yet you yourself narrowly escaped being stuck as the World Messiah!!

K: Yah. That would have been a big drag--

CT: what a predicament!

K: Phony PR, worse than being married.-- Here, take my handkerchief, your nose is bleeding.

CT: Oh, thank you. I think you got me with your elbow.

K: No, it was the kick.

CT: I thought it was your elbow right after I punched you in the stomach.

K: It looked like my elbow but you weren’t paying attention. I faked with my left elbow, spun, and got you with my right heel.

CT: Well. Nice move.

K: So-- as I was saying, I would just say don’t go through all this process of meditation and all of that.

CT: But--

K: Joe has a very good opportunity to learn about himself, know himself, which is his relationship with nature, to his wife, to the politician, to the neighbour kid with whom he is talking. He can be aware of all of his reactions. Then go further. Joe doesn’t need anybody to tell him how to go. That’s his interest. He wants to find out.

CT: Certainly that must be the major emphasis. Are you quite certain Joe is married?

K: That is the only emphasis, not major.

CT: OK, but given the--

K: Not OK. That is the only thing he can begin with because he’s related to everything all his life.

CT: If I may say, people like Joe within the pressure of the social reality find it is--

K: --impossible.

CT: Exactly.

K: That means that Joe hasn’t understood society and his relationship to society. You have created this awful corrupt society because you are all like that.

CT: If Joe is generally floundering within it then

K: Stop.

CT: Stop what?

K: This floundering. You see it is so simple. Someone like you the priest or Epstein the psychiatrist or the poseur raver-chick stands up and says to Joe, "I’ll help you." This game has been going on for a million years. You are all trying to help. Therefore you are making Joe weak, the listener whom you are trying to help. Everything you find out. Don’t depend on anybody.

CT: That is an indispensable emphasis-- to encourage--

K: I don’t want that. You see how you are using these words. I don’t want to encourage anybody. I don’t want to help anyone. I say to Joe, "Look, it is right in front of your nose, the whole world and yourself in relationship to the world. There is something much greater than that. Go into it." Why should I be a leader? Historically, how many leaders have we had?

CT: I am completely with you.

K: Sir, you talk about meditation.

CT: Yes. Of course.

K: I say any form of conscious meditation is no meditation.

CT: That is tough language.

K: It is desire that is making Joe sit. It is desire that says Joe must achieve.

CT: Can’t the desire--

K: You haven’t come to what is desire. What is the nature of desire? Please, meditation is something entirely different, not all of this intellectual or emotional effort. This is something that must be done--not "must be done." Something which is consciousness with all of its travail, with all this anxiety, pain, loneliness. All that must be understood first. That’s the corruption--not pornographic books and drugs, not even the high school kids in America shooting each other to death. Corruption is when we are selfish, arrogant, envious. Begin there. Start there.

CT: Krishnamurti, I’m not sure you realize how profoundly you have influenced many of us. Thank you.

K: I hope we shall meet again.